Marco Polo: Behind the scenes Q & A with the cast and crew

Interviewer: Welcome to the special edition, behind the scenes commentary on Marco Polo, the latest, most epic Netflix series that attempts to re-live the many stories and glories of the young, most famously contested Venetian traveller. I’m here today with executive producers Espen Sandberg, Daniel Minahan and Joachim Ronning. Creator John Fusco and Lorenzo Richelmy and Olivia Cheng, who play Marco Polo and Mei Lin respectively, now before we delve in, Espen, could you please brief our listeners on the first two episodes of season 1.

Espen: Episode 1 portrays Marco Polo traveling with his father and uncle on the Silk Road in the year 1273. The opening scene of episode 1 shows the group in a burned-down village that had been destroyed by the forces of the great Mongol emperor Kublai Khan. This was their punishment for their support of the old Chinese Song regime. The trio is taken prisoner by the Khan’s forces and end up in Kublai’s court where the father offers Marco to the Great Khan as his slave. Polo has been conscripted into the court of Kublai Khan and viewers witness how Marco begins to adjust and learn how to become a Mongol with the help of Hundred Eyes. In episode 2, Marco Polo is sent to accompany Prince Jingim (Kublai’s son) on a trip to visit Kublai’s brother Ariq and to report back what he observes. When they return, Polo suggests that Ariq is planning treason against Kublai, contrary to what the Prince reports. Turns out, Marco was right and Jingim was wrong. Episode 2 ends with Kublai and Ariq fighting one-on-one to the death, each as representatives of their warring Mongol tribes. Kublai ultimately finds the strength and will to kill his own brother. He has reunited the Mongols and declares they will take on the Walled City.

I: How did you depict Marco Polo’s travels from Italy to China?

Espen: Marco Polo and the group of travellers suffer through times of great danger and hardship on sea and on land during their travels. In the episode, we condensed three years of travelling into 5 minutes, for obvious reasons and focused on portraying the extent of their sufferings in a brief period of time. Marco almost dies; they survive sandstorms, snowstorms and one danger after another. We based much of our research on Marco Polo’s personal accounts from “The Travels” so in that sense, we really tried our best to stick to historical accuracy as much as we possible could.

I: I'm aware that you are very fascinated by the historical narrative of Marco Polo and especially concerning the on-going debate of whether or not Polo really even made it into China. Any thoughts?

Espen: Yes, I even attended a course that specifically dealt with the legitimacy of Marco Polo's voyage. To summarize the core of the debate, on one hand, some historians think Marco Polo’s Travels make perplexing mistakes and omit key characteristics of China. For example, “Marco Polo described the Mongol fleet’s ships as having five masts, but excavations have only turned up three-masted vessels” and he fails to describe the Wall of China or the practice of foot binding.[1] Other historians would refute these arguments and claim that just because Polo fails to account for certain details, this does not necessarily diminish the truthfulness of his accounts. I personally would argue that Polo had did land in China because his entries are exhaustive and contains many details about China nevertheless.

I: Daniel, there is much controversy regarding Polo’s actual accounts. On that note, how accurate would you say Marco Polo is from a historical perspective?

Daniel: We're sort of basing this loosely on "The Travels of Marco Polo," which are his journals, which are notoriously embellished to the point where he was known in Italy as Il Milione, The Million Lies. So working in this area of narrative where some of its fact and some of its embellishment and the question of whether or not Polo actually landed in China, is really kind of fun and exciting for filmmakers because you can be as colorful as Marco Polo. Marco’s ability to embellish more or less gives us plenty of room for interpretation as filmmakers. Historical accuracy was “very important without being chained to history.”[2] It’s more about striking a balance between overarching historical significance while making it as entertaining as possible. It’s sort of a fun mix of history and fiction. I think happens whenever you try to tell a historical story.

I: Would you say that the producers/directors in general are looking to educate people about the Mongolian Empire with Marco Polo? Or it is more about putting out a good product of historical fiction with some solid historical context.

Daniel: Certainly our main focus is putting on a good television show first and foremost, but we did try our best to root much of what we did in true historical context. As I mentioned earlier though, Marco himself is known for his ability to embellish everything so in that regard, everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Likewise, our primary goal isn’t to make an educational, historically factual biography of Marco Polo’s travels, if you want to watch something like that I’m sure there are documentaries available. Our work is based in history, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s all historically factual. Some characters are historical figures, while others are not. That’s not to say that we don’t respect the history of the Mongol Empire, on the contrary we actually greatly respect it. Our historical accuracy is rooted in the attention to detail we put into ensuring that set design and costumes and such were accurate. At the macro level we strived to give the show as much truthful historical context as we could, but at the same time as I said before – you want to use the historical background as something you can use to interpret and manipulate to put out an entertaining product to your viewers with, not to chain yourself with.[3]

I: Now John, what exactly compelled you to focus on the character of Marco Polo?

John: I made ‘Marco Polo’ because I had always been interested in China and I am Italian and so was Polo. I felt an affinity with him. I had an opportunity to travel to Mongolia while I was making a film in the region and spoke to people I met there about Marco Polo. “We would camp at night in the gers and I’d ask about the history of Mongolia and they would say: “Well, as Marco Polo said …”

I: The Khan in his court surrounds himself with loyal men who are not always Chinese. Why?

John: Yes, the Khan’s Vice Regent or Chancellor and his Minister of Finance are Muslim. I used actors that were Muslim The friend of Marco’s the merchant who was evading taxes, for example who takes payment in linen, thereby forgoing have to declare monies coming in to his business was Muslim. In the film he is wrapped in a carpet and trampled to death by horses in the same way the last Muslim Caliph Al-Musta’sim was the day Baghdad was sacked by the Mongols and the Abbasid dynasty fell in 1258. This was a victory for the Mongol leader Hulagu Khan, another grandson of Genghis Khan’s. It is the Finance Minister who investigates the merchant’s taxes. These men close to the Khan stand always to the right of the Khan in court in the film. Muslims had ruled far into these lands in Central Asia, had served bureaucratic roles and Muslim traders had been around for centuries.

Fact check: We learned that a key factor of the Mongol conquest was the recruitment of non-Mongol experts or semu, the inclusion of all non-Mongol people. Not only in the court, but also by 1270, the Mongols had a full navy, staffed by the semu, which would soon become crucial for the eventual conquest of the Southern Song. As for Muslim connections, the existence of the “hui hui pao,” (hui hui being the central Asian Muslims and pao meaning canon) suggests evidence of the central Asian Muslim connections that existed during this period (Lecture 3).

I: Daniel, can you talk about your specific role as an executive producer in the making of Marco Polo?

Daniel: While a lot of people recognize John Fusco as the creative force and executive producer behind Marco Polo, a lot of people don’t realize that TV shows often have a whole lot of executive producers – many of whom bring different skillsets to the table. John is the creative force and he brings the screenwriting prowess and the direction of the show while Harvey Weinstein of The Weinstein Company helped link us with Netflix to turn this production into reality. I bring a practical knowledge of shooting and working with large-scale big budget TV dramas. I’ve directed episodes of The Newsroom, True Blood, Grey’s Anatomy, and most notably what we’re hoping will be the biggest direct competitor for Marco Polo – Game of Thrones. I’ve been directing for some time now, but this is my first major foray into the production aspect of television and it was a great experience for me to be able to go on and do that.

I: What historical narrative were you trying to weave? And where do you think you’ve deviated from history in doing so?

Daniel: A good example in the first two episodes is the fight scene between Kublai and his brother Ariq Böke. While there was ongoing struggle between both brothers as a part of the succession crisis following the passing of Möngke Khan, in reality there was no fight to the death between the brothers. The TV show portrays Kublai as perhaps having more legitimacy and Ariq comes across as a rebel, but historically Ariq was elected first as Khan and possessing the stronger support of the Mongol traditionalists. Eventually, Ariq surrendered to Kublai and was imprisoned. A specific thing we tried to focus on, with regards to this episode at least, was just the magnitude of the Mongol Empire at the time. Even though the actual battle was eventually restricted to just two people, we tried as best we could to display the huge scale with a lot of soldiers and horses. While we left out things like the numerous other legitimacy challenges that Kublai faced when trying to set himself up as the Khan of Khans (as he was also not recognized as the supreme Khanate among other factions), instead we focused on the relationship between the Mongol Empire and the Southern Song. Truth be told, the challenge that Kublai faced from the quickly factionalizing remnants of the Mongol leaders post Möngke Khan, who himself faced plenty of challenges succeeding Genghis as Khanate, were a far more pressing issue than the South Song early on in Kublai’s reign. Again, we thought that the narrative we could draw emphasizing both the cultural differences and similarities between the Yuan and Song was far more compelling television than watching Kublai snuff out uprisings from his various relatives. Kublai is interesting as a person in that while he tries his best to maintain his image as a tough Mongol leader, he’s very much assimilated into the Chinese lifestyle and not all that different from the Southern Song. This is reflected both historically and in the drama. Historically, Kublai wasn’t popular with traditional Mongol elements while in the drama, we see Benedict struggle to balance his luxurious Chinese living style in the imperial palace while most of his countrymen are still living in yurts – as does his son Jingim.

I: John, you’re the creator of the series; how did you approach the process of creating the series and what did you choose to emphasize in particular?

John: The Travels were the world’s introduction to Kublai Khan. A lot of emphasis went on the court, on political power. I shot the court from all angles, and emphasized Khublai’s power and his perspective. What was missing from The Travels was the perspective of the “Great Khan.”[4] Early, he’s challenged as to whether he wants to be a Mongol or Chinese ruler. “Emperor of Mongolia, Emperor of China,” he roars, “I will be Emperor of the world!” Another character that I found interesting was Kublai’s brother, Boke, who is overseer of Karakorum because I also wanted to emphasize that there was a Mongol element to the Mongol dynasty. Boke betrays Kublai by not keeping his word to him, that he gave in front of the whole court. I also want to mention Empress Chabi, sitting serenely meditating in the garden one morning the Empress mentions to the Kublai that the idea of his brother’s head sliced off would “excite” her. The power of Empress Chabi in her abilities to portray her opinions and influence Kublai, demonstrate a certain level of power that women had during the Mongol period.

I: Like Daniel, you have chosen to focus on the civil war between the two brothers Kublai and Böke. Why was this scene so memorable and again, what were you trying to emphasize?

John: The fight to the death between Kublai and Böke was a great scene to shoot. Kublai rides out from his men gets off his horse takes his helmet off and stands facing Böke whose army stands behind him. Both armies are mounted and face each other over a levee. In the early Mongol way, merit won out over lineage. Leaders had to prove themselves. Make themselves prominent at a khuriltai for example. So I chose the battle scene as most memorable because it depicts just the extent to which meritocracy was crucial. I mean, a brother killed his own brother. So, I emphasized war and family relationships and continuity.

I: Dan, Marco Polo is billed as the most expensive television show, ever made. Can you go into some of the show’s production?

Daniel: So we filmed in several locations across the globe: Italy, Kazakhstan, and Malaysia. We wanted to give the battle and fight scenes the most authentic feel as we possibly could. A large part of the budget went into filming in the extreme, isolated locations and making sure that the audience could fully relate to the magnitude of the Mongol Empire.[5] 13th century Europe didn’t have any kind of military power quite like the Mongols and we tried as best as we could to emphasize that point. We used a 160 person art department with a 400 person construction and craftsman crew who designed, built, carved, and dressed fifty one separate sets out of 130 tons of plaster and 1.6 tons of silicone while also forging ancient metal weapons from scratch. We also utilized a large and experienced on-set production crew with both film and TV credits and hundreds of extras including some 300 Kazakh horsemen who were authentically armored for battle and then multiplied via CGI into Kublai’s thousands-strong army. To make a good historical television show, I think you need a combination of two elements that have to work together well: a riveting narrative that the audience can relate to and exquisite production. I think a lot of the audience can relate to Marco Polo’s story of having to adapt to a completely new environment. While Marco Polo and the Khan would have needed translators in order to communicate effectively between the two, we decided against portraying that aspect as we felt it would take away from the kind of camaraderie that the two of them would develop – even if there seems to be no such relationship judging from the first two episodes. I feel our cinematography speaks for itself, whether its attention to detail we paid to traditional Chinese garb, the large-scale army scenes, or just the shots of the scenery overall we thought that we did a great job of making Marco Polo as beautiful and authentic as we could from a visual perspective.

I: And what sort of attention to detail would you say really distinguished this series from say, other historical dramas?

Daniel: Our talented stylists, costume designers and makeup artists put in a lot of effort in attempting to accurately depict the details of the physical appearances of figures of the Mongol period. Hairstyling for example, was a key component of the costuming department. There was a great attention to detail and handicraft. Historically, depending on an individual’s social class, ranking or position in the court, the headpieces, pins and accessories varied greatly.

I: John, speaking for the casting director who’s not here with us today, what can you say about the casting process?

John: We wanted accuracy with the characters. Mei Lin, concubine of the late Emperor Lizong of Song is my favorite character. A female assassin may have been rare but not impossible. We saw through her how easily we could show a change in alliances when there is change in leadership because her fate changed along with the Emperor’s death.

Daniel asks Olivia: Speaking of Mei Lin and the female characters, Fusco previously touched upon the power of Empress Chabi, the wife of Kublai, in voicing her opinion and also on not only the sexual but general power of women portrayed by the female characters. I want to ask you, Olivia, you play the lethal yet alluring role of Mei Lin, the royal concubine. From a female audience’s point of view, what were your reactions to the depiction of women in the series?

Olivia: Well, I must say I loved how strong the women are in the show and they totally kept up with the men, not only in terms of the action sequences, but also of their contribution and ability to dynamically propel the plot forwards within such a male-dominated series.

Daniel: Can you elaborate?

Olivia: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is how women (at least in the first two episodes) embody the stereotypical gender expectations and female oppression that conforms to the Confucian patriarchal traditions, while at other times, viewers are also able to see the intelligence and sophistication of better educated women. For example, every single function designated to the female characters (from Empress Chabi to Mei Lin’s daughter LingLing) are restricted to that of a daughter, a wife, a mother, a love interest or the typical concubine or prostitute that reside in the Hall of Five Desires. In one sense then, I think these female characters do not get a lot to work with based on the stereotypical sense of these roles. We continue see the oppression of women under the patriarchal, male-dominated familial structure through Mei Lin’s character. There’s a scene in episode 1 where she urges her brother to negotiate for peace with the Mongols in conformity to the dying Chinese Emperor’s wishes. Her brother tells her to “trust” him, but it’s pretty much a threat against her and nothing close to a nice, brotherly gesture for her.

Historically, we’re aware of how in the Song women were treated badly for the most part and were under the control and submission to men not only in society but even within her own family. As we saw in the earlier clip, Mei Lin’s own brother sends guards to rape her and although she survives with her epic moves, she is then punished for basically saving her own life by having her daughter LingLing taken away. Whereas Mongol women in comparison, certainly seemed to a greater sense of “freedom.” Kokachin the Blue Princess for example, she is technically confined within the role of Marco Polo’s love interest but she is able to ride outside the walls of Khanbalik with little fear of repercussion.

Fact Check: Mongol Queen/mothers/consorts were also known to have played a huge role in elections. The influence of women during the succession process after Ogadei’s death was a big factor. In lecture 3, we see examples of how the status and role of women was unique in Mongol society. Sorghaghtani Beki for example, was Ogadei’s sister-in-law, a Queen and follower of Nestorian Christianity. She was pivotal due to her power and ability to engineer support for her own children during the elections and even succeeds in landing her son a seat. Toregene Khatun, Ogadei’s wife, was also a prominent figure as she dealt with public affairs; overseeing everything from diplomatic relations and succession problems. In the show, women are clearly present within Kublai’s court and there is also a scene that we’ll come across later where we see Prince Jingim’s mother, caring for her son in the face of Kublai Khan. In the show then, not only is Empress Chabi a woman of the court, an influential figure for Kublai himself, but she also a mother.

Daniel asks Olivia: The repression and oppression of women is definitely not unheard of. You claim however, that your character also deviates from such female stereotypes, how?

Olivia: I think it’s important to point out how we also see the more intelligent-side of Mei Lin and her level of sophistication. I don’t want to overanalyze the dialogue, but in the scene where Mei Lin is explaining to her daughter about the death of the Song Chinese Emperor, is not only heartwarming, but she speaks in a poetic prose.

[Scene]

Based on this clip, I think we could interpret her speech as a potential reflection of an increasingly educated, literate and knowledge group of women. For obvious reasons, women cannot be discussed in early modern China as a uniform group because similar to the men, women were treated differently based on their social class, age and locales. But it’s worth noting that women during the Yuan dynasty were known to have had more opportunities and freedoms to self-improve and self-invest in comparison to that of the earlier periods.

I guess the point I’m getting at is that all the female characters in the show are not flat characters that are just responsible for the nudity, sex scenes, massages or whatever else. They are dynamic and surprisingly complex and interesting characters in their own right, especially as I mentioned before, for such a male-dominated series.

Back to interviewer: Now Espen, in terms of the distribution, why Netflix?

Espen: As you know, Netflix is the world’s leading internet Television network with over 44 million members in more than 40 countries enjoying more than one billion hours of TV shows and movies per month. If I were to speak purely from a business-oriented mindset, choosing Netflix is our attempt to reach out to the audience on a global scale and more specifically, tapping into the Asian market could indeed be a high priority as producers within the entertainment industry. The Marco Polo series, in our mind, with the intense martial arts sequences, much nudity and exotic scenery (just to name a few), offers the opportune moment to not only attract the right audience, but also to build and maintain such a relationship in the years to come.

I: This may be a rather sensitive area, but there are some very negative feedback and low ratings out there for the series. One critic even went so far as to describe it as “ludicrous.” John, how would you respond to such criticism?

John: I believe such feedback may possibly be based on some viewer’s dislike of say, the exaggerated prowess of Chinese martial arts. The scene of where Mei Lin murders the armed soldiers stark naked with typical, choreographed Asian Kung Fu of sorts, may not sit well with certain people. And we understand that. But as for the series itself being ludicrous, I must strongly disagree. Not just because I participated in the production, but also because I truly adhered to accuracy in terms of the sources. What I did with the film was fill in some of the gaps in Polo’s storytelling. “I have read multiple translations of [The Travels] and cross-referenced those with Rashid al-Din, who was the Persian historian of the time. I’ve also cross-referenced with Chinese dynasty accounts. I basically have done my homework and feel like I know the subject.”[6]. And the audience today includes the academic world, which is an online, Netflix watching world. Fusco wrote to this audience just as The Travels was written to an audience. One response by a historian writing about the film in 2015[7] is not very convincing because who’s to say Polo’s Travels wasn’t pop-culture in the 13th Century like ‘Marco Polo’ is today?

I: Speaking of criticism, Lorenzo I’m going to be honest with you. Your character in the first two episodes is often criticized as bland and boring, especially in comparison to the grandiose Kublai Khan. Some would even say that the series should be called “Kublai Kahn” and that the only reason it’s called "Marco Polo” is because of his greater name recognition. What is your stance in the face of such criticism of the series and also against your character?

Lorenzo: Here’s the thing though, I think it’s worth questioning the actual importance or relevance of Marco Polo to Kublai and his court. According to the “Travels” Polo had ascended to the position of a government official yet there remains virtually no evidence within Chinese historical texts that document his existence within the Court. The debate still rages on today, but couldn’t we also just interpret this as Polo not having been of enough significance as a foreigner to make it onto the historical records? In that sense, Marco Polo was only as fascinating as the stories he told about the larger-than-life Emperor, Kublai Khan. And although Kublai seems to value and rely on Polo for his observations, there is also the notion that the emperor had kept Polo around as a source of entertainment within his court. I find this to be a reasonable explanation for Polo being missing from the actual historical records. I think my depiction of Marco Polo, as a rather bland character is quite historically accurate. Again, keep in mind that we’re only two episodes in, so we’re going to have to keep watching for character development.

[Scene]

I: Lorenzo, you chose this scene as one of your most defining moments, why?

Lorenzo: In further defense of my portrayal, I believe that Polo’s role and character shone most brightly in times when he puts his observatory skills to the test. Although it may not be the most visually and appealing to the audience, if you take into consideration the reason for Kublai’s dependence on the “Latin’s” observations, I would say his character remains quite dynamic. For example, right from the onset, in episode 1, both his father and Kublai himself praise Polo on his “clever mind and excellent perception.” And these skills come to life later in episode 2, where Polo outshines Jingim with greater observation and perception skills. I see Marco Polo as the witness of these two worlds colliding and Marco does what he essentially does best, bearing witness to such historical events; in his own words, “I only describe what I see as I saw it."

I: Lorenzo, do you have anything else to say to the critics?

Lorenzo: As the series is first and foremost a historical reenactment, it really depends on the type of audience. I would recommend the Marco Polo series to history buffs that enjoy watching history-based dramas any day. Personally, we are essentially dealing with a narrative, a set, filming locations and characters that are still relatively unknown to the “West” today. On that note, there is nothing quite like Marco Polo and though we do admit to our intentions to reach out to a more global audience, it really comes down to the individual preference that will dictate the reviews of our show.

I: You’ve probably noticed by now that I have been asking a lot about the historical accuracy of the series. As the lead actor, were you able to do some of your own research about Marco Polo and this particular period in history?

Lorenzo: Yes, of course. I do believe it’s important for an actor to be knowledgeable about the background and historical context of their given role, especially since Marco Polo is first and foremost a work of historical fiction. Based on what I have studied, I do believe that we get many of the themes of Kublai’s reign correct. For example, viewers can distinguish the cultural tensions between Kublai’s “barbaric” Mongolian culture (as demonstrated in his brute, violent acts) in contrast to this more “civilized” Chinese culture that he adopted for his kingdom and son. As for the historical accuracy in its entirety, as John Fusco previously explained, we do seem to loosen up a bit, but again, we’re not filming a documentary right? I think the producers would agree with me when I say that if the series has successfully sparked even a small interest in our viewers of the Mongol culture, its history and the relationship between Kublai and Polo, then that is good enough for me.

Fact Check: To further address Kublai’s dualism, in lecture 3, we address the narrative of Kublai Khan where some say that his power is a deliberate syncretism, often with pragmatic ideals; in other words, many things existing at the same time with many different ideas, cultures and religions. Aside from the other influences that we’ve already mentioned, Kublai relied on Muslim architects to build Khanbalik, relied on Phagspa Lama for spiritual guidance and appointed Sayid Ajall Shams Al-din, a Muslim from Bukara, as governor of a new territory of the Yuan. Kublai also pushed more “Chinese-y” ideas by bringing in Chinese experts and things like Confucian temples for example, were also known to exist. It’s easy to say, Kublai’s city was a syncretic city where he fostered no favoritism; no group was supposed to be superseding another (Lecture 3).

I: Now Mr. Ronning, sorry for ignoring you this whole time, but I want to ask you specifically, Lorenzo just mentioned the cultural tensions during Kublai’s reign. We saw in the episodes, how Price Jingim, Kublai’s son, his upbringing differed not only from that of his father, but also from other Mongolians. This leads to some, notably his uncle, who we’ve touched on before, distancing both Jingim and Kublai from what it means to be a true Mongol. Why do you think Kublai decided to raise his son in a more Confucian way?

Ronning: I think it was more of a question of keeping the whole empire together than it was about keeping his son on the “One true path”. I know I’ve mentioned the first scene, but again I think it did a good job of showing that while yes, the Mongols were this unstoppable force putting more and more pressure on the Southern Song, the fact that they were seen as barbarians took away from their legitimacy as a ruling dynasty. If we go look back at the history, while Jingim was to inherit the Mongol empire, his Confucian upbringing would give him legitimacy over his Chinese subjects. I mean, this is why Kublai started the Yuan dynasty, so he could rule China with a somewhat legitimate air, and pretty much gave the Chinese empire the borders it has today. Even the capital, Khanbalik, is where modern day Beijing. Ultimately, Kublai tried to project this image of himself to the Chinese of being a ‘sage emperor’ which was more along the lines of what would’ve been expected from Song rulers and I think with the way Jingim was raised, and even named, with his name of course meaning ‘true gold’ in Chinese, was more about keeping China under unified rule.

I: As co-director, you’re also responsible for bringing to life your own vision for each episode. Now I noticed that in the first two episodes religion is an important underlying theme. What kind of impact do you think religion would have played on each character’s real historical counterpart?

Ronning: Well seeing as it was the late 13th century, I’d say it would have had a significant role on any of the main characters. All we need is the first scene in the show to see a group of Europeans travelling through Mongol territory with a priest in tow, even if he was slaughtered so quickly. I don’t think one can emphasize enough how important the concept of God and religion was in all facets of European life. Church is also, surprisingly enough where Niccolò returns to find Marco after all those years of travel on the road and gives him a crucifix necklace while reciting a bible verse. Even from the other side, Kublai Khan, who as a Mongol supposedly follows the ways of the Eternal Blue Sky, was curious to know more about the system in Europe, lamenting that the priests Niccolò had promised did not survive the journey. While Kublai’s interests were more secular, suspecting the power it holds on people.

Moving over from a European perspective, as was mentioned before, the first two episodes provide us an interesting look at both the final days of the Southern Song before Kublai replaced it with the Yuan, and also of Kublai’s court, which happened to be composed by a diverse array of people with equally diverse religious adherences. Getting back to the Song though, it’s really interesting to see how Sidao, the series’ antagonist really fits into the bad guy role while also being the complete opposite of what Confucianism would have him be, let alone how un-Confucian his meteoric rise in power is. I think we reflected this well in how we give our audience a proper Confucian leader in the form of a dying emperor, in that as he dies so do the proper Confucian ways of the court.

On the Mongol side it was a bit more fun because not only do we have the Mongol horde with their traditional shamanistic religion from the plains in which the Eternal Blue Sky gets all the praise, but we also have court members from the far reaches of the empire, particularly in the form of the Khan’s two most trusted advisors, Yusuf and Ahmad, who both happen to be Islamic at a time when the Golden Age of Islam also happens to be coming to an end. More importantly however, I think just the contrast between Kublai and the way his own son was raised in a Confucian manner is a great topic unto its own.

I: I’m going to interrupt you there and add that the theme of justice was also quite interestingly portrayed in the second episode. Can you brief us on the history of justice during the Yuan and how you were able to incorporate that into the narrative in such a way that the viewers would be able to understand.

Ronning: In the second episode of Netflix's Marco Polo, we are given a small introduction into life in Yuan China and subsequently the justice system and how it affects those accused of crimes. While the first episode introduced us to the Mongol concept of justice when Kublai sentences a horse thief to death, in the second episode we get a taste of how the executions were carried out. In this case being wrapped in a rug and trampled by horses. While this does make for good TV viewing, how does this stack up to the actual justice doled out by the Yuan dynasty? For one, unlike the first two episodes of the show, Kublai was most likely not involved in every single criminal case in Khanbalik. When Kublai created the Yuan dynasty he also re-established the Six Ministries, which also included the Ministry of Justice. This ministry did not have the authority however to deal with cases involving Mongols, only those that dealt with Chinese subjects. While for those accused of crimes that were of other ethnicities, a joint Mongol and Chinese board was set up to determine the consequences of said crimes.[8] This was a bit different from what the series shows us, that Kublai was the be all and end all of justice.

On the Song side, while prostitution may have been frowned on and persecuted in other parts of the world, as we learned in class because there were no prospects for religious life during the Song dynasty, sex work and courtesanship was accepted both socially and economically as a way to make a living. While the Confucian ideal was for women to get married and devote their lives to the home and family, for women of low birth and standing, such as the made up character of Mei Lin, life in the sex trade would've been able to go on unhindered by the powers that be. This was especially true with men being allowed concubines as an easy way out from being limited to one wife under Confucian standards.[9]

I: That brings us to the end of our special edition, behind the scenes commentary of Marco Polo. Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses and I wish everyone all the best for the many seasons to come.